Sunday, October 29, 2006

"An Honest Conversation," by Steve Gilliard, posted June 22, 2005

Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - but still relevant.

An Honest Conversation

by Steve Gilliard

This will be brief.

We need to be honest here: Iraq is not worth one more dead American.

People on the right and left want some deus ex machina to save Iraq, but we have, collectively, come to a simple conclusion:

Iraq is not worth dying for. Not for the warmongers on the right or the liberal hawks on the left.

It's bad the soldiers are trapped there, but we have made it their problem. No one is willingly going to join them, and 5,000 have deserved so far.

When you ask liberal hawks to enlist, they are offended by the question.

When you ask conservatives to enlist, they are offended by the question.

And America's parents are NOT sending their kids to die in Iraq if they can, at all, help it. No one blows up IEDs at Wal Mart.

We have a volunteer army with fewer and fewer volunteers, and people reenlisting only to save their friends. There is a time limit to their ability to be in combat. They cannot serve forever. They will have to be replaced. And fewer and fewer are willing to replace them.

What I want people to do is be honest.

If you will not serve in Iraq, and no one you know will serve, stop expecting someone else to do what you will not.

Therefore, it is time to stop calling for more troops, or the U.S. to make Iraq safe. We cannot do this and even Americans are refusing to join the fight. It is time to look at your actions and realize that, despite your ideals, you oppose continuing this war. In practical terms, you have decided that this war is not worth your life or anyone you know. And millions of Americans have joined you in this decision.

So, with this fact evident, it is time to call for U.S. troops to withdraw from Iraq. Not save it, not add more boots on the ground. You have already voted by your actions. It is time that you match it with your words.

from Steve Gilliard's News Blog, June 22, 2005.


At 29 October, 2006 20:25, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Send all the

Republican House


Senate Members


K - Street Lobby Boys

and the 10:00PM to 2:00PM Pentagon


geepers that ought to add an

additional 400,000 luke warm bodies.

Then the US military can leave this

great UNplanned Bush WaR!!!

I'm a Mother and I approve this BILL!

At 29 October, 2006 21:19, Anonymous Anonymous said...

i've been a regular reader of OYE for a while (i don't support the war and i'm not heterosexual (or sufficiently healthy), so i'm unable to serve even if i did approval).

besides just thanking those who do serve for their service, check out for ways to support the troops serving overseas right now. thanks to the bush administration, these guys are stuck in a bad place with insufficient resources such that getting a box of baby wipes so they can wipe down can be the thing that brightens up their day.

At 30 October, 2006 23:24, Anonymous Samwise Galenorn said...

The war is also not worth one more innocent Iraqi person.

At 31 October, 2006 02:49, Blogger Karl said...

samwise galenorn-

Yes, but we should be under no illusions that a U.S. pullout from Iraq will immediately result in peace and tranquility throughout the country.

At 31 October, 2006 23:26, Anonymous AmericanAvenger said...

You said "And America's parents are NOT sending their kids to die in Iraq if they can, at all, help it. No one blows up IEDs at Wal Mart."

I have a kid over there, I have friends over there. They are fighting an enemy that kills innocents to gain media attention and let weak minded folks like you folks here tear our country apart from within.

You folks are the best ally Terrorists and The extremist factions of Iraq have.

Every soldier killed after the first 6 months of the war is partly your folks fault.

This would be over and done with if the enemy was facing a UNITED states. instead of a split down party lines for political gain ideology your people subscribe to.
Enjoy your freedom as long as the IED's don't start exploding in wal-mart, and when they do don't cry for a soldier to save your ass.

At 01 November, 2006 14:36, Anonymous Samwise Galenorn said...

American Avenger, your stupidity is amazing. I'll take time to point this out.
The people in Iraq have no stability, and are being shot at again and again. Just about every person in Iraq knows of someone affected by either American troops shooting at them, or the result of insurgent factions fighting among one another. I'm pretty certain that their main motive isn't 'To gain media attention'. It may just be a lot more basic.
Here, you're labeling all people against the war as an ally for Terrorist. Are you labeling Iraqi veterans as allies of Terrorist? They are the ones who want to get out of Iraq (over 70%?).
The reason we are over there is because the president lied us into a war. Period. Just accept that fact and we can get to the next step, getting ourselves out, a message that isn't comming from the pro-war side of this debate.

Here's a bare bones start for resolving this conflict.
1. Let Iraq be partitioned into three countries. Leave behind the concept that it is a unified country, because it isn't. Allow it to be split up into a Kurdish country, a Sunni country, and a Shi'ite country.
2. Get rid of all American contracting. It is too expensive, and isn't rebuilding Iraq.
3. Concentrate all troops into the Sunni portion of the country.
4. Have Iraq rebuild Iraq. With no American contractors, have the US finance the rebuilding of Iraq by Iraqi only personal and businesses. It will cost a small fraction of what we currently pay, and jobs will lead to a decrease in violence.
5. Once construction is underway, we can stage a pullout.

This plan doesn't rely on white house 'one liners' or poll numbers, but directly addresses violence and the people in Iraq.
It can work.

At 02 November, 2006 00:01, Anonymous Impaler said...

Samwise, your stupidity is amazing, although I will give you cudos for at least articulating a plan, that is more than the democrates have done.

I think that you are missing the point of the war. And this has not been articulated because the military doesn’t publish its plans. This tactic of warfare although brutal, is highly effective when dealing with ununiformed ops. If you cannot identify your enemy, you create the situation (party) that you know they will attend (Iraq), and be waiting with superiour forces and whittle them away. As a Vet, (USARMY), I worked in top commands, as a combat communications expert, with the necissary clearances.

In my combat unit, I specialized in MOUT the type of fighting currently in bagdad. Your proposal is flawed, and I will break it down for you in simple terms.

1. Partition sounds good, until you study the geopolitical side, wht about the Turks? They are an important partner in that region. They will not stand for a Kurd state. Iran, they would absorb the south west section (where most of the oil is), and the rest what do they get nothing sand and more violence from the shia. Nope will not work, nice try.
2. A major portion of construction has been completed and is underway, it is done by private companies (American and other), hence the large contract givin a Japanese firm for upgrading oil refineries. Open bidding I can meet you there. But now you and your party want to bar Amercian private enerprise from the country, now that is just plain unAmerican. Not only is this unconstitutional, but the mega corps would do it anyway through foreign subsidarys.
3. Number three….just stupid…you need to read Sun Tzu before you comment further on military deployments… really.
4. Your party has said no blood for oil, well, the proper answer would have been, finance the rebuilding with revenue from the oil. And have Iraq issue long term bonds to the US for repayment
5. We are never leaving Iraq. Period any thought that this will happen is a dream. We are still in Germany, and Japan. And this will be a perfect staging area for forward deployments in the area.

I think it is important to give you something to think about, a vast majority of the men and women serving support this action, in training you spend years to get to this point, the Superbowl. And the arrogance of people like yourself (civilians) to think you know better what to do, and how to do it, still to this day makes me sad. I fought, and would be there now if I was younger.

What this blog is, and people like yourself represent I will show you so you maybe enlightened. First, the law of 33’s my thesis, 33 percent of people in this country are against military adventures. 33 percent will participate, and the rest just don’t want the shooting near them. This is true in every war America has had. 33 percent where against the fight for independence, 33 percent where against WWI, WWII, Korea, Nam and so on. The media, and the raucus 33 percent of hippies should stand down, and let the patriots continue the march of freedom, there is no draft, YOU don’t have to go. But don’t lie and slander your way through life. Really you sound like a relitivly bright guy.

Ride to the Sound of Gunfire!

At 02 November, 2006 01:30, Anonymous djtyg said...

Impaler, what are you talking about?

Last I checked, the US Military only had 1.1 million active members, and about as many Reservists.

With about 2.2 million people, that would mean there were only 6.6 million people in the entire United States according to your 33% math.

And your math on war supporters is way off. In the early days of Afghanistan, Bush had a 90% approval rating because of the war. In WWII support never dropped below 75%.

Me, I'm just against this war because it's a waste of time and resources that we're using to NOT catch the people responsible for 9/11. There was no Al-Queda in Iraq before Iraq. It also helps to point out that EVERY prediction the Bush administration has made about the war was WRONG.

Why should I believe the Bush administration when they talk about Iraq if they've never been right about anything they've said before?

BTW-Sun Tzu said an Army needs superior numbers to win. If Rumsfeld listened to that advice, we might not be having a post-war war.

At 03 November, 2006 23:30, Anonymous Impaler said...

OK djtyg, I am going to do this one more time so I will type slower,

1. In the 33's which is accurate even during WWII, but in that case the media was very much controlled by the government. Think of all the pro war movies made by republic pictures and others. And perhaps the Japanese-Americans were not able to participate in the polling....LOL Oh, and BTW only a move a Democrat President could make. But back to point, you have to look at the control of the media; we have not won a war (excluding Desert Storm) since WWII, because the continued slide to the left of the Media. Now I can understand your confusion, let’s add some labels for you.

A. 33 liberal (Anti-War)
B. 33 Independent (wavering support)
C. 33 Patriot (Pro-Freedom)

Now if you do your research you will find that the fluctuations in each group can be about 4 points. Now I did make a mistake in how I labeled, the groups that lead to the possible misunderstanding, I called it Participate, by this term I meant men and women who would make the ultimate sacrifice for others in the name of freedom. So for this exercise C. is them.

Now, A. is in control of a vast majority of the media. So A. can influence B. to there side, a long process but 3-5 years. This is what happened in Korea, and Viet Nam, and is happening now the facts are: we have won every battle in Iraq. Period. Fact. But the Terrorists have said they cannot when on the battle field they can only beat us at home, And if the Dems get control of congress next week. America has lost the war not just in Iraq, but Afghanistan. And personally, I am done with this country anyway, a majority of people are not worth defending here, they take Freedom for granted, and are lazy, spoiled, fat meat bags (sorry for futurama reference). Unlike Alec Baldwin I am building a home in Santul, Indonesia, they are good peeps, and live in paradise.

“ Me, I'm just against this war because it's a waste of time and resources that we're using to NOT catch the people responsible for 9/11. There was no Al-Queda in Iraq before Iraq. It also helps to point out that EVERY prediction the Bush administration has made about the war was WRONG.”

Now I won’t call you a liar, you have just been given an example of the peeps in A. and there anti-war propaganda. Al Qaeda was there Fact. Al Qaeda infiltrated Iraq after our invasion of Afghanistan, and established training bases, and was supported by Iraqi intelligence operatives to fight the common enemy in Afghanistan. Now if you really don’t believe me, ask me to post proof. But you should know by now I have a grip on this scenario. Saddam had weapons of mass destruction FACT. Ok it would have taken Saddam a few weeks to weaponize the war heads…. Sarin, mustard, VX, was all found in Iraq. Just not in large quantities, but enough to kill tens of thousand of Peeps. Again if you need the proof let me know.

Now onto Bush, if you believe predictions you bust always be disappointed in Vegas. Or Kerry or Gore….etc. has anyone asked you to go….no, then get back to starbucks.

I want you to understand this clearly, Korea and Vietnam we had a draft, OK I can accept peeps not wanting to go. But there is no draft, but group A. doesn’t care they want to see the US lose the war on terror. Fact. CBS, NBC, CNN, MSNBC, and others only care about socialist issues, and forwarding their anti-American views. If we want to win the war, (and scare the shit out of the terrorists) we need to send all foreign (including US) reporters home, and let the boys do their job. And this war would end sooner.

And seriously I’m moving to Indonesia when the house is complete.

“Ride to the Sound of Gunfire”

BTW that is not a quote from sun tzu....

At 04 November, 2006 10:39, Blogger ariadne said...

"A. is in control of a vast majority of the media." Um, no.

Two words: Corporate Sponsorship (why the Dixie Chicks ads were pulled, why The Book of Daniel was pulled, why the fictitious ABC's Road to 9/11 was aired, why the Reagan documentary was not aired.

For the rest of your "I believe in 1/3...because I believe it!!" That's just ignorant. As in, unsupported by knowledge


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