Tuesday, August 02, 2005


By Elaine Meinel Supkis

A picture is worth a thousand words. Some posters here contended that the Boy Scouts is a great organization for young boys. I claimed it is an undisguised recruiting station for the military and this is the only reason it was created and is coddled by the rulers of more than one country.

So here it is. I was right, as usual.

The sad truth is, the Boy Scouts are sold to parents as a great place for boys to go camping (note the casualty toll of this one camp out is nearing Iraqi levels!) and have fun and learn how to tie knots. But the knot that is being tied is around the boy's necks.

Like all traps, it is baited with goodies.

Bush's sole concern for being there was to gull naive children into doing what he and the Young Republicans will never do: fight to save America. In Ohio, the Marine running for office, Mr. Hackett, is under full blow attacks from the GOP for being a Marine. Their chicken mouthoffs in the media even stooped to calling him literally "a baby killer."

During the Vietnam war whenever vets came home, if they spoke out about the war at all, they were spat upon by the right wing who then made up stories about hippies doing the spitting yet we saw them spit again upon a vet in the last election. This schizophrenic view of the world is troubling. Obviously, they need to be hospitalized...for life. Yet they manage to rule America!

Life is full of wonders. And traps.


At 02 August, 2005 07:36, Blogger Karl said...

One purpose of OYE is to close - forever - the gap between our military and our civilian society by encouraging participation in our military by citizens from all walks of life.

It won't necessarily be proportional, but if more people personally knew someone in the military, they would show more concern about the troops than a yellow ribbon.

This includes the rich and famous as well as those with "other priorities" when they were of military age.

And it's up to the current and future leaders of our governing party to set an example for everyone.

I'm frankly quite ashamed that Our President is mis-using our military as a political prop. The troops are showing respect to the office, but are free to make up their own minds regarding its current occupant and those he appoints.

Karl Olson


At 02 August, 2005 09:11, Blogger D.F. Facti said...

Well, the PNAC wants perpetual war, after all.

If I were a parent who'd enrolled my kid so he could camp and tie knots, I'd be pretty upset with this tableau.

A perverse assumption one might make is that despite Fox, etc. either ignoring the war or reporting only on soldiers rescuing kittens, the lumps must have figured out that Iraq is a mess or more of them would be enlisting.

So the problem isn't cognition, but total, utter hypocrisy and arrogance.

At 02 August, 2005 10:14, Blogger Elaine Supkis said...

All the balloons and ribbons and flags and speeches go to waste if people refuse to fight because they are scared of being blown up.

This is why all wars end up using drafts.

At 02 August, 2005 10:36, Blogger idyllopus said...

Off topic of the Jamboree, but I think another group candidate for Operation Yellow Elephant are the Fragdolls.

I post on them here...

Frag Dolls Not Content With Gaming Bloodshed

and thought you might want a head's up. If you've already posted on them here already, sorry for the repeat. They're female gaming bait for America's Army fantasy war video games that are used to entice new retruits. Are professional gamers who have played, on the Army's behalf, against potential recruits and are credited with never having lost a game. All from the safety of their gaming thrones.

At 02 August, 2005 11:19, Blogger Elaine Supkis said...

OK, I just put your web site up on this site. We should see much more of each other. I will talk to the General about this.

At 02 August, 2005 11:23, Blogger Elaine Supkis said...

Just emailed our General. I hope you both hear from him soon.

At 02 August, 2005 11:56, Anonymous JasonB said...

Straw Man, party of 3, your table is ready!

Elaine, you need to take a course in logic. Or at least learn causation.

Straw Man #1) Yes, the Jamboree was at a military base. But the yearly Jamboree is THE biggestScoutign function every year. Military bases are large and have the facilities to host those. But even disagreeing with that, because the national leaders of the Boy Scouts choose to have it there does not make the kids in Scouts Chickenhawks.

Straw Man #2) Just because the military was there in some fashion (baloons, recruiting, whatever) does not make the KIDS in the Scouts Chickenhawks. For all you know many of those kids are agaisnt the war. Do you have any way of knowing? No. You are making generalizations based on your narrow view of what is right and wrong. Does that make ANY function where the military is present an "undisguised recruiting station for the military"? no more than having Coke advertisements makes someplace an "undisguised recruting station for Coca-Cola drinkers."

Straw Man #3)Bush speaking to an organization does not make that organization oen of warmongering chickenhawks. Bush spoke to the Black Expo here in Indianapolis - does that make Black Expo warmongering chickenhawks, too? Your logical fallacy is immense. Just as Bush misuses our brave soldiers as political props, he is misusing these kids adn the Scoutign organization as the same.

But no, the High And Mighty Elaine Supkis has declared the Boy Scouts to be Hitler Youth Paramilitary Organization and how dare anyone challenge her, knower of all that is True Liberal And Right ("burr under the saddle of the Real Rulers of America since childhood, ... pulled down more than one politician in life" oh yes, don't take yourself too seriously or anything.)

I was a Boy Scout for probably close to 10 years (including Cub Scouts). My brother was a Boy Scout. My father was a Boy Scout. My grandfather was a Boy Scout. Never was I urged to be a warmonger nor was I ever even RECRUITED by ANY branch of the military. EVER. What kind of "undisguised recruiting station for hte military" is that?

The values I learned from Scouting were compassion, caring, community service and yes - survival skills and that camping is fun. There were some religious aspects, but they were never overt and I even ended up becoming an atheist! I got a ton of merit badges, learned a ton of things and became a better person. And my brother, father and grandfather would all say the same thing. And none of us are what you could call "warmongers" or anything of the sort (yeah, my Dad's a republican but the economic type, not the "take over the world" type)

95% of the kids involved in scouting, as much as it may pain you, are in it for the camping, the friendship and the learning. And 95% of the adults in scouting are in it for the same reasons and to pass their love of scouting to kids.

Are there bad apples? yup. There's gonna be warmongering future young Republicans in there and crazy warmongering conservatives in the adult leadership. But there are people like that EVERYWHERE in EVERY organization. Just like there are crazies on the left just as there are crazies on the right.

Do I disagree with the leadership of the Scouts on their anti-gay stances? Hell yes and that is my main beef with the Scouts and why I would have a hard time letting a son of mine be in the Scouts.

But your mockery of the dead, accusations towards kids who just want to camp, and hypocritical generalizations make liberals and those behind the true goals of OYE look stupid.

As for your hypocrisy you never did answer an earlier charge I made in the comments of an earlier post: What if some republican said "All blacks are lazy liberals mooching off the government" and then mocked deaths at a rally of African Americans in the same generalizing tone in which you mock and accuse the Boy Scouts? You'd be asking for their head!!! But it's okay for you to do it...

At 02 August, 2005 12:18, Blogger Elaine Supkis said...


It is the adults trolling with children to con them into a war the adults won't fight.

Bush didn't fight. He was there to egg them on and get them excited about war. I hope you learn to read, Jason. Your skills are lacking in a big way. Not one of my posts have you read carefully yet you argue.

Gads. Ridiculous.

Go back and read your other comments and see how I was right on every single matter.

NEWS: five Marines, maybe six, blown up today. More than 20 last week. They are hemorraging and Bush is buzzing around boys, laughing and telling them making flags is going to win this bloody conflict.

At 02 August, 2005 12:41, Anonymous Anonymous said...


At 02 August, 2005 12:43, Anonymous Anonymous said...


At 02 August, 2005 13:12, Blogger Liberal AND Proud said...

I recommend that some of you up your dosages.

At 02 August, 2005 13:13, Anonymous Anonymous said...

jasonb, do please read Elaine's posts again. She's not talking about the boys. She writes about the people like Bush and military figures who show up to prey on the youngsters. You are misrepresenting her comments.

And please stop making up statistics. How do you know what 95% of the boys are in Scouting for? On your web page, you make the same comment and say that it's 99%. OK which is it, and please provide a source for your data--or could it be that you're just making up numbers to try to appear credible? Could it be that you're just stating an opinion that has no basis in fact, just personal belief? Could it be that you have absolutely no evidence for your assertion other than limited past experience and you don't want to admit it? I'd say that 99.786% of your argument is bogus, and 99.382% of your post is based on your misreading of Elaine's post.

Lastly, you're certainly a walking advertisement for Scouting--Look at the adult you became: snide, condescending, and arrogant. I guess those 10 years in Scouting helped shape your charming demeanor.

At 02 August, 2005 14:21, Anonymous Jeff said...

Their chicken mouthoffs in the media even stooped to calling him literally "a baby killer."
seems accurate unless you prefer "brown baby killer"

At 02 August, 2005 14:22, Anonymous Jeff said...

boy scouts are a bunch of pussies

At 02 August, 2005 14:31, Blogger MJS said...

The Story So Far...Boy Scouting, on the one hand, has much to offer youngsters in the ways of camping, first aid, honor and truthfulness, as long as you are not an avowed atheist. Girl Scouts, on the other hand, are a seasonal phenomenon, held captive in cookie factories until released with the latest harvest. That's the plusses.

The negatives include an environment of neo-military tribalism, which was seemingly quite appropriate in the 20th century; the 21st century has an opportunity to call "warmongering" into the public arena and bitch slap it back to the monkey farm. Our military is not democratic but rather cobbled out of our poorest citizens--lacking other opportunities, they fight our wars and are maimed and killed "for freedom", and mom and dad get a collectible flag to put on the mantle next to the photo of their dead kid, and don't you dare say anything against the troops and so are played for saps twice.

Maybe if we stopped calling them Boy Scouts and started calling them Cannon Fodderettes...

I have read these comments and cannot find Elaine's description of the children as anything but objective and fair. They are kids, afterall. What is chilling is the relative ease with which they are lined up like toy soldiers, ready to march and die for god and country: what is six years to a twelve year old, who at eighteen is deemed ready to kill or be killed. All they require is a little tap on the shoulder from their tribal elders, and a game that should have been shamed back to the caves continues with fresh victims, fresh graves, and small shrines on mantles across the globe.


At 02 August, 2005 15:56, Blogger Karl said...

I agree with jasonb. This blog is starting to veer off-topic.

I thought we were supposed to focus on otherwise eligible members of our governing party.

Yes, we can discuss the current Administration mis-using the Scouts (as well as the troops) as political props.

Since this is the last Jamboree held on a military base, I guess it's OK to criticize the pre-recruiting pitches, which are pretty obvious.

But I thought that the purpose of this blog is to encourage the strongest supporters of our nation's current military adventures (otherwise eligible) to consider putting themselves where their politics are.

Also, let's try to be more concise.

Thank you.

Karl Olson


At 02 August, 2005 16:36, Anonymous Joe said...

My last bit on the Scouts...Elaine has not been fair to the kids:

"Like in the Vietnam war, they are content to wave flags and shout aggressive slogans and pat themselves on the back and think, "My gadding about here, goofing around in the sun, laughing and eating, is making America strong!"

Also, she has a really bad way of generalizing every small story into a looming trend. Anecdone != data, Elaine.

At 02 August, 2005 20:54, Anonymous Anonymous said...


At 03 August, 2005 06:36, Blogger Elaine Supkis said...

They really seriously believe that camping trips are patriotic enough for conducting a war.


Always, the propaganda breaks down and the generals realize they must force people into battle. This is why, even attempts at drumming up FUTURE recruits at events like this one that wildly cheered Bush, fail in the end.

The facade of patriotism is all fake because few really do want to die in war. They LOVE flag waving and shouting USA USA. This is "fun". War is "hell."

Now, at this point, I am the one posting, by far, the most articles. If anyone wants to post something better, do so. I don't see much. Even the latest, the kid who went to the GOP Infant convention, he ATTACKS US AT KOS. Even though he was too scared of freaking out his Log Cabin buddies to say anything overt, he claims WE are stupid because we didn't storm the convention.


I couldn't. I live a zillion miles away. It isn't worth my while. I merely analyze and critisize way off over here.

Those here who want to belly ache about the Young Republicans can do so. Just email me your articles and I will post them here. I hope to hear from everyone soon (hahahaha).

At 03 August, 2005 12:31, Anonymous Anonymous said...


At 03 August, 2005 14:59, Anonymous Jimmy said...

how about getting these little pussies to enlist we should get the contact info for each and every boy scout except the brown ones and email and call them and show up at their houses until they shit their pants yellow

At 06 August, 2005 22:58, Anonymous Anonymous said...


At 07 August, 2005 14:11, Anonymous Doug Lim said...

Just to add a couple of points from the perspective of someone who actually participated in Boy Scouts as a kid:

First, I joined Boy Scouts at the minimum required age (10 y.o.). I (and, I think it'd be fair to say, my peers in the troop) didn't see it as some sort of paramilitary, future-soldier-in-training, activity.

Sure one could look at the uniforms, the oath, patrols (troop subgroup - 4-6 kids in our troop) and each patrol's flags, the salutes and say, without ever having participated in the group, "It's obvious, it's a paramilitary group, encouraging (indoctrinating?) our kids to serve in the real military in the future." But at that age, we kids really didn't see it as anything more than (in approximate decreasing order of emphasis in our troop): weekly social activity and very informal sports play, community service projects, learning *interesting* skills (possibly, but not always vocational, like the electronics merit badge I once earned), and camping/outdoor activity, including learning to tie some useful knots (most of which I've since forgotten).

I participated in Boy Scouts regularly through the 8th grade and steeply losing interest as a freshman in high school and completely quitting some time during that year. During the course of my participation in scouting, I think there were maybe 20 or 30 boys that came through our troop with maybe 10-15 boys in the troop at any given time. My story of my waning interest in scouting is pretty typical of the other guys I knew in my troop. By the time I stopped participating, practically all of the other guys I started in 5th grade with had also quit participating.

Out of my troop, I know of only one guy who was dedicated enough to Boy Scouts to continue on to the rank of Eagle Scout (pretty typical of the fact that Eagle Scouts, out of the whole population of kids who've participated in scouting, are very rare). As far as I was aware of him through my high school years, he did not continue on to military service. In fact, out of all the guys that I was ever in the troop with, only one, that I'm aware of, ended up enlisting in the military (Army). He was the same age as I, and he had lost interest in scouting by the end of 6th grade.

Secondly, leading from my experience that scouting was not particularly emphasized as paramilitary, I don't have a whole lot objection to holding a scouting event on a military base, at least not from any kind of "indoctrination" angle. I have maybe a bit more of a dispute as to whether a jamboree *needs* to be hosted on a military base, and whether taxpayer money should be spent (though you have to admit, the amount spent by a base on a scouting event is probably incredibly, incredibly miniscule compared to the entire military budget or even compared to the overall base budget) for the benefit of what's essentially a private (pretty deeply embedded in Americana, but private nevertheless) organization.

I don't see anything terribly wrong with a nearby military base hosting a Boy Scout jamboree. I do take issue with the suggestion of, "Where else are you going to find that big of a facility?" Sure, if you're talking about a business or professional convention with lots of people who insist on creature comforts, sure you need a large, somewhat sophisticated hosting facility. But this is scouting. It's significantly about camping. At minimum, you need lots of space for kids to pitch their tents, and maybe truck in a bunch of portable toilets. I remember attending one jamboree during my time in Boy Scouts. It was held in a nearby forest preserve.

At 07 August, 2005 16:26, Anonymous Anonymous said...

you're experience isnt worth shit those pussy boy scouts should all have to serve a tour or three in iraq before they earn the right to use federal property for there giant gay orgies, then there would be fewer of them because they would all get shot or die of dehidration because they dont know what the fuck to do in the heat and they could be buried in the sand just like brown people


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